Curse

Jeydra · Mar 29, 2010, 03:59 PM // 15:59

It all started when I decided I'll finish vanquishing Elona for some reason ...

Now vanquishes are usually very easy, so I figured I'd screw running two Monks and just bring one. Why not? I even brought along a dual Fall Back Paragon for extra mobility since I was planning on cartographing as well as vanquishing. The build seared its way through all the remaining vanquishes I attempted, including areas in the Desolation, Vabbi and Istan.

After that I began to wonder if I was indeed running too much defense in other areas of PvE. When I PuG for example and find myself running ER, I know for a fact that I usually wand more often than cast. I'm almost never under pressure, and all that prodigious defense is overkill. Question is can a healer henchman do the same? It turns out that they can. I tried the build in increasingly tough areas, going through Borguus Blisterbark HM, Raven's Point HM, Rragar's HM, Frostmaw's HM and now Duncan HM - all with fairly little problems.

Here's a screenshot of the Duncan run I just did. I apologize for using the glitch, but then it's the only way to get into Duncan without re-doing the four bosses:

Some Q&A's: I have Heart of Shadow because it's an integral part of the glitch. I'm running 16 Energy Storage because I recently changed my Energy Storage helm to Superior runes for easier ER. I have an Air Wand and Focus because I don't have a 40/40 Energy Storage set, so my 40/20/20 ER Enchanting set will have to do. I'm running Blessed Insignias without an enchantment because I only have one set of armour, and most of the time I do have enchantments.

I wiped once in the dungeon - that was approaching the many Restless Dead spawns just before the Stone Summit Rangerspike group (the third room). The spirits I left behind aggro'ed the patrolling Stone Summit mob I could usually avoid, which is my mistake, and the Summit rushed me while I was fighting the Restless Dead popups. Resulting fight was still pretty close. The team had been fighting ~4 consecutive popups of Restless Dead and the Stone Summit approached from the back with about 5 Restless Dead still alive, but even though I wiped by that time only ~4 Stone Summit and ~1 Restless Dead was still standing, and Razah escaped without dying. The other time I died was near the end when I forgot to micro Prot Spirit before I swapped spirits

Grand total of times I micro'ed Prot Spirit and Aegis before I got to Duncan: zero - but I did micro the spirits a lot.

From this I'm pretty much concluding that I'll never step into another PvE area with more than one dedicated healer. It is simply not needed. Party heals are very helpful though, especially Kaolai because heroes are so fast with it. Henchmen healers don't have party healing and if unprepared (or lazy) it's pretty often that AoE does massive damage to the party, so this shores up a weak point.

Comments, suggestions for my build, etc welcome.

PS: Yeah my build sucks. Pity it needs Heart of Shadow and Swap, and if it does I don't have the room for spells like Lightning Orb.
PPS: In case anyone wonders how I killed the Stone Summit mobs en route to Duncan, here's a screenshot of the first mob. I forgot to take it until we'd already engaged, but the heroes were flagged and spirits were all down before aggro.

Xenomortis · Mar 29, 2010, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Nice work.
Lina's build has never been too great - by taking up a bit of blocking onto your midline and PS you only miss Shield of Absorption, but henchmen aren't too intelligent with that skill.

Does stuff die appreciably faster? I would have thought you'd be on a bit of a knife edge but you do have quite a bit of damage mitigation (loads of spirits, minions, some blind and blocking).
Still nice job, I doubt I could reproduce it though.

And did Destruction accomplish anything that Painful Bond wouldn't have?

maxxfury · Mar 29, 2010, 04:47 PM // 16:47

boon of creation, pwk, spirit light, ps, aegis pretty much covers another slot on a 'backline' although its been diffused onto the midline and is micro'able. Gives quite a lot of party heals, pressure mop up, spike heal party block and wtfpwn defence with better eman than the ai monk hench.

Add in the minions + spirit cannon fodder.. thats a strong team setup. And prob still has as much if not more 'backline' ability as if you had 2 monks/rit ai's anyway. And with it diffused over the midline, if effectively gives you another slot for offence/utility instead of the 2nd ai monk.

Aswell as the large damage output, that shoudl get most stuff ghosted before your team can be overwhelmed .

The idea isnt anything new per say, but i doubt its widely recognized by genpop as been as effective as a regular 2man backline. Other than in disco, were they diffuse the backline into the midline too.

Kosman · Mar 29, 2010, 05:21 PM // 17:21

what are the skills on Razah and Xandra?

BTW: Is that a setup made for Duncan or just for general use?

shinta_himura · Mar 29, 2010, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Is there a walkthrough for this type of build? I've only faced Duncan once before and I can't imagine how you got through all of those mobs on HM with some heals, minions and spirits. Let alone killing duncan with his ridiculous shield.

Can you write a walkthrough?

EFGJack · Mar 29, 2010, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinta_himura

Is there a walkthrough for this type of build? I've only faced Duncan once before and I can't imagine how you got through all of those mobs on HM with some heals, minions and spirits. Let alone killing duncan with his ridiculous shield.

Can you write a walkthrough?

the screenshot sums it up nicely:

1. Set up spirits
2. target healer
3. kill healer
4. kill the rest
5. repeat steps 1-4 with the next group.

Duncan on the other hand is quite simple (if you're going to die because of his shield - stop dealing damage to him and recover zzz)

mage767 · Mar 29, 2010, 06:02 PM // 18:02

I don't think you need 2 monks anyway if you have 2 spirit spammers in the team.

Anyway, most people don't run the spirit team. So, I am not sure what this thread is about...is that spirits are over-powered and should be used in PvE HM? If so, then there is really nothing new. With patience and good pulling tactics, anything is doable with spirits.

The idea is to roll through VQes super fast and slowing it down by setting up spirits and aggroing is simply not worth it. If I got my first god in XXX hours, I should be able to do the second in half that time because I know ow to do it quicker!

But the screenshot of Jeydra should motivate those wanting to do Duncan HM by themselves.

Gift3d · Mar 29, 2010, 07:20 PM // 19:20

looks like it took forever and a day.

Daesu · Mar 29, 2010, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Nice! I think the defense is ok for average HM but you must have pulled carefully, surviving Duncan HM with that.

kedde · Mar 29, 2010, 10:35 PM // 22:35

I think this shows more about you being patient and above the the general suckage of most people than it does about this being a good idea for most people.

Its like some of the people who are into subteaming posting their builds of 4man HM UW and implying this is the way everything should be done.

Jeydra · Mar 30, 2010, 12:23 AM // 00:23

@Xenomortis - I honestly don't know about Destruction vs. Painful Bond; I've never played a Ritualist in PvE before so I don't know how they compare. I do notice that the AI appears to use Painful Bond fairly rarely; what's more, unless I take the effort to ball enemies up, its AoE effect is rather wasted. Nonetheless it's an excellent spike skill on par with Rend Enchants to trigger AP. I don't know which is better. From the practical point of view though there's no big difference (except that Destruction leaves a nice animation ... lol). Yes stuff die appreciably faster. It should, since there's now space for one more offensive character.

I'm also at a loss why I seem to take so little damage. Like, the first time I went in I was joking with Life Bringing about whether or not I'd make it. The first mob in Duncan is after all one of the toughest balanced groups in the game after all. But then the first mob crumpled and I barely took damage. I can't say why. Best guess is that the minions / spirits absorb most of the damage. I guess you could count that as essentially having another backliner, but the whole point is that all those minions and spirits deal damage as well. They aren't dedicated defense like Mhenlo and Lina, but rather offensive defense. Until I started trying 1-man backlines I didn't think you could do that; I usually dropped used Mhenlo + Lina (dropping Cynn).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

looks like it took forever and a day.

Lol aggro techniques.

I'll have to say this again: aggro techniques usually do not make a run slower. This particular run I had to use this particular technique because of the difficulty. It does increase the time taken, but it's more than balanced out by actually being able to do the dungeon, guarding against wipes, and so on. It's not about being patient, it's about being willing to micro and flag. I'll also say that I killed Duncan after 30 minutes /age time. It could've been considerably faster if I aimed for maximum speed and didn't wipe. If you can consistently beat this time in the same area with an Elementalist primary, please show me how you did it - I'd be interested in trying it out myself.

The build has enough resilience not to rely on aggro techniques in VQs most of the time. That means you can essentially run straight into the next group. Against Borguus Blisterbark, Frostmaw's and Rragar's, I did need to flag heroes apart. No big deal though, because I can't think of a H/H setup that can tank multiple Searing Flames / Wurm Biles on everyone / Ray of Judgements without wiping.

EDIT: Oh and -

Quote:

Is there a walkthrough for this type of build? I've only faced Duncan once before and I can't imagine how you got through all of those mobs on HM with some heals, minions and spirits. Let alone killing duncan with his ridiculous shield.

Can you write a walkthrough?

EFGJack summed it up nicely, I'll just add that if the healers are out of range then KD / use EBVAS on the frontliners and wait for their party bars to drop (they will drop, because the build does huge damage). Try not to wait too long though because it is possible to get pressured out; at some point you may have to call a target and focus him down. As for Duncan himself, there's really only one danger and that's Spirit Rift exploding on the entire party. Therefore, each time you see Spirit Rift cast, flag H/H to move. That's about it.

In most areas you don't need anything extra to play this build compared to, say, Discordway. Just remember that if you run into problems, you always have a fallback (you can lay spirits before aggro).

maxxfury · Mar 30, 2010, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lol aggro techniques.

Aye, unless your terrible, proper agro takes a matter of a couple of seconds..
its no long drawn out process that takes minutes to perfectly line up or anything..

As you say a little flagging and micro is nothing and take no time at all.

I still wonder why people think it takes so long to agro right, i guess its due to the way dedicated tank n spank tanks in recent times (ala sf sins) round up eveything in the local area in god mode...to be nuked

Daesu · Mar 30, 2010, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Just remember that if you run into problems, you always have a fallback (you can lay spirits before aggro).

That just goes to show how overpowered spirits + minions are, even without AoU, they can still tank in HM Duncan.

Jeydra · Apr 06, 2010, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Tried one healer in Forge HM. It didn't go well. I did everything short of execute a long pull at every engagement, but still died many times. Me going AFK to play another game while patrols were still roaming didn't help either.

I think one-healer backlines have trouble when enemies can unload as much damage as quickly as Flowstones / Burning Spirits, or Elementalist foes in general (but then again, which H/H teambuild doesn't?). If a Rogort's Invocation goes off on the henchmen ball, Mhenlo just can't cope. Nonetheless mobs with only Flowstones / Burning Spirit should be doable, at least as Elementalist primary, without too many deaths. Only difficulty are those Burning Spirits that are backed by Stone Summit healers. I just delayed using that method too long until half my party were over ~40% DP.

A few caveats though, I don't know how much of my trouble with the dungeon was caused by me using Lo Sha instead of Zho. I also used Cynn, which is a strange choice to say the least. And finally there may be things I should have done, but didn't (like killing the Flowstones / Burning Spirits without breaking aggro), as well as things I don't know about, and so didn't do.

Chthon · Apr 07, 2010, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Yeah... so I tried this to VQ Twin Serpent Lakes, without having the sense to look up what elites the monsters got in HM. Got the the first mob and Souske got hit with 18,742 copies of PBlock, completely shutting him down. Then I wiped. The map was doable with flagging Souske back and making sure to draw all the PBlocks onto myself upon initial aggro. Still, it was slow and a gigantic pain in the arse, and I would have rather had a second healer. Moral: 1 healer backline is a really bad idea against heavy amounts of skill disable.

Life Bringing · Apr 07, 2010, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Yeah... so I tried this to VQ Twin Serpent Lakes, without having the sense to look up what elites the monsters got in HM. Got the the first mob and Souske got hit with 18,742 copies of PBlock, completely shutting him down. Then I wiped. The map was doable with flagging Souske back and making sure to draw all the PBlocks onto myself upon initial aggro. Still, it was slow and a gigantic pain in the arse, and I would have rather had a second healer. Moral: 1 healer backline is a really bad idea against heavy amounts of skill disable.

Sousuke?

Jeydra is talking about only using mhenlo lol. I guess it's similar, but getting an extra hero slot is a hell of a lot more useful than getting an extra hench slot.

HigherMinion · Apr 07, 2010, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Sousuke?

Jeydra is talking about only using mhenlo lol. I guess it's similar, but getting an extra hero slot is a hell of a lot more useful than getting an extra hench slot.

I'd always prefer my own hero to be able to pre-prot, as I like to charge into mobs when h/h and spam call MoP on something. If only I could put PS on one of my ranger heroes

Jeydra · Apr 07, 2010, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Yeah... so I tried this to VQ Twin Serpent Lakes, without having the sense to look up what elites the monsters got in HM. Got the the first mob and Souske got hit with 18,742 copies of PBlock, completely shutting him down. Then I wiped. The map was doable with flagging Souske back and making sure to draw all the PBlocks onto myself upon initial aggro. Still, it was slow and a gigantic pain in the arse, and I would have rather had a second healer. Moral: 1 healer backline is a really bad idea against heavy amounts of skill disable.

I don't get it ...

How can a Tyrian area be so hard to VQ? I just tried it myself, running exactly the same bars on the heroes except Splinter Weapon in place of Frozen Soil, and of course myself reverting to my default Air Magic build. I used Orion and Alesia the first time. The build steamrolled the first few mobs and red bars barely dropped. After that I tried going out there without Alesia, bringing Reyna instead, and again I steamrolled the first few mobs without problems (although this time red bars definitely dropped). There were times I aggro'ed two mobs at a time but didn't suffer any deaths, let alone wipe. There was even a time when one Tengu group attacked from the front and one Mergoyle group from the back, and I still didn't suffer any deaths. I didn't micro anything either, and the only real risk of dying was Jurah killing himself with Masochism / Blood of the Master.

Admittedly Power Block on Assassin's Promise is annoying, but the way the mobs I faced crumpled, I could've gone AFK and still not died. I really don't understand how you had so much trouble. What heroes did you run anyway?

Zodiac Meteor · Apr 07, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Good offense and good defense never needs 2 healers.

When I did City of To'lolname HM I got a Soul Twisting Rit and a SoS rit, the entire first half of the area red bars didn't fall below 80%. It made my ER infuse seem over powered because the team was near god mode. Spirits are now extremely overpowered, it wasn't until we entered the city (body blocked 3 mobs at door O_o) that I was definitely needed.

The lesson here is, a good defensive and offense can easily replace a healer or even two. The only way a regular team could have survived that over aggro is if the team had 3 monks.

9tails · Apr 07, 2010, 05:36 PM // 17:36

While in general I find this thread a fascinating look into how people build their H/H groups, I have to ask... what areas are you guys doing where the henchies are so good that it's worth sacrificing a hero slot for the priviledge of bringing the third and fourth best non-healer henchies? I can't imagine doing that almost anywhere in Prophecies, where the henchies are almost uniformly terrible. Even in NF and GWEN, where you get stronger henchies such as Herta, Zho, or Sogolon, I'm not sure that I'm that excited about swapping out one of my SoS or MM/MB heroes for an ER Vekk in order to... what? Replace Mhenlo and Khim/Lina with Odurra, Lo Sha, or Gheraz? I'm just not feeling the love.